tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28333398.post735756092580124104..comments2023-03-24T00:53:13.504-05:00Comments on you gotta be kiddin!: Dying to SelfUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28333398.post-32471609878213535972007-12-29T00:01:00.000-06:002007-12-29T00:01:00.000-06:00I agree with you that the trichotomosit view as I ...I agree with you that the trichotomosit view as I described is not biblical, but it accurately reflects Word-of-Faith theology which has its origin in the influence of metaphysical ideas that Kenyon adopted, which were very gnostic and dualistic. Kenyon was not Pentecostal, but Baptist. When Hagin imported Kenyon's ideas in the 1960's they entered Pentecostalism. As a result, many Pentecosatals represent this view without knowing where it came from. How many times do you hear, "I rebuke that" "I don't receive that" or "I speak to and take authority over my body" etc. One woman years back at CLC tried to cast a "spirit of intellectualism" out of me when I disagreed with her faith theology.<BR/><BR/>Pentecostal theologians have been pointing out for quite a while that this Faith theology is abberant, opting for dichotomism - the inner-man and outer-man - both valid and insperable facets of being conscious in the physical world.<BR/><BR/>The Dark Night of the Soul comes from Catholic mystics such as St. Theresa, St. John of the Cross, Madame Guyon, and seems to have been influenced by eastern mysticism. <BR/><BR/>My point was to say that these are invalid ways of relating with God.<BR/><BR/>Now, covenant relationship and contingent promises from God, it seems to me, are always initiated by God and depend on your obedience. You bring up good things to consider about broken promises, but there is the elephant in the room which is basically that people do prophecy falsely and even confirm these things. The very specific things promised to me were not fulfilled because they simply weren't true. This is not a failing on the part of God or myself, but a realization that He wasn't in on the game all along. If I had any complaint it is more along the lines of why true prophecies were not there to correct the false ones as I prayed for such interjection from God, but it was green lights all the way. I saw a church split recently where each leader had a team of prophets prophesying against the other! My survival mentality simply told me to get out of that kind of circus and find a more valid way of hearing from God.<BR/><BR/>How God relates with us has always been paradoxical to me. On one hand He is king of the universe, no one can stop Him, nothing is too hard for Him, He is sovereign over history, hardens, softens, blinds, give sight, elects, rejects, and does a lot of behind the scenes work. Then you have this idea that "God respects free will" and theologians and philosophers have argued over each word in that sentence! God respects you, asks of you, reasons with you, woos you, is not compulsory, etc.<BR/><BR/>What you state is from Romans 9 is it not? "He is the potter, you are the clay. The clay has no right to say to the potter, 'Why did you make me this way?' Who are you to talk back to God, oh man?, etc."<BR/><BR/>Again, it's all so paradoxical and I haven't come to a comfortable conclusion except that in any dealing with God, there must be an individual there to choose to respond for there to be actual relationship. Even Jesus gives us a name on a white stone in heaven, we are not absorbed into God by losing our identity.<BR/><BR/>So death to self is chosen obedience to God over your own will in relation to His will, yet still having a seperate identity is it not?Paul M. Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04880809369067743828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28333398.post-40962571502229254552007-12-28T09:34:00.000-06:002007-12-28T09:34:00.000-06:00Sadly, your assessment of Pentecostal doctrine of ...Sadly, your assessment of Pentecostal doctrine of the self is off. It is my understanding that God wants us to love him with all of our self (heart,mind, soul< etc). So the issue is a denial of the individual will. This is the highest form of respect for ones self - to accurately assess your weaknesses and strengths. And on the basis of that understanding THEN there can be an approach to God.<BR/><BR/>Occassionally I hear from someone who makes the claim to have "broken promises" from God. But "upon further review from the booth" we sadly recognize that they either didn't diligently search (heart, mind, sould, strength), lived in blatant disobedience to the Word of God, or persevered only a short time.<BR/>Scripture says in Heb 11.6 that He is a rewarder of those who seek him.<BR/><BR/>While there needn't be the implication that there is a prosperous idyllic world that follows there is blessing in obedience<BR/><BR/>As for the mutual respect in relationships- that assumes two equals. The whole argument breaks down. The idea of a Soveriegn Lord comes from a covenant based on the conquerors dictates, not the conquered. In other words "What did the pile of spit say to the Mighty Warrior... who cares!"<BR/><BR/>We ARE nothing but a created object.Pastor Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13401038731569512858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28333398.post-86721092246563424972007-12-27T22:46:00.000-06:002007-12-27T22:46:00.000-06:00I have learned many lessons in the death to self c...I have learned many lessons in the death to self category that I hope is helpful.<BR/><BR/>Without getting into the nature of man and how we relate to God, as there are at least a dozen formulas and views on this, death to self for me simply meant, "I want to do this, but God wants me to do that. I call Him 'Lord' so I'm gonna put my will aside and do that."<BR/><BR/>Many Pentecostal, and specifically Faith Movement authors, are trichotomists, which divides man into <I>body</I> (a mere vehicle to be dominated and never trusted), <I>soul</I> (your mind will and emotions, never to be trusted unless under the authority of the spirit), and <I>spirit,</I> which is the regenerate, recreated, divine part of you that receives union with God and Spirit revelation. They believe mainly in denying your body, your intellect, and your sight in order to follow the inner-light that comes from God - an indescribable inner-knowing.<BR/><BR/>In order to be in the will of God and receive all of His benefits, your spirit must be in total union with God and dominating every area of your life. Whatever your spirit tells you, you must obey.<BR/><BR/>I was taught so many times that I was "in the flesh" if I ever made a plan without consulting God first. "Do you want a good thing or a God thing?" The idea is that there is a way in which you can prosper in every area of life because you are in perfect step with a God who never fails.<BR/><BR/>As I obeyed all of this spirit revelation that was even confirmed rather specifically by prophetic people, nothing worked out as promised. This I was told was the <I>Dark Night of the Soul</I> which is a Catholic mystical tradition which means total death of self and absorbtion into God. God purposely burns down His promises to you and tests you to see if you will obey with your spirit, without sight, when all else seems opposite. The end result of obedience is a blissful union with God in which you sense and know His presence moment by moment of every day. Well, all I was left with was a bunch of confirmed false promises that cost me everything, followed by extended silence from God.<BR/><BR/>I read a secular author that explained that Christianity promoted a codependent and sado-masochistic relationship with God in which you are either groveling, worshiping, or are totally dependant on God for everything (without Him I can do nothing, only God is good, He must increase, I must decrease, etc.). Healthy relationships involve mutual repsect in order for them to truly be free.<BR/><BR/>I re-read certain verses and saw that there was no Biblical concept of self-annihilation in the Eastern sense, or complete absorbtion, and that those in complete obedience to God were often met with trouble and suffering, not a perfect skate to a wonderful prosperous life.<BR/><BR/>So any idea of death to self can only have integrity if you retain self - the part of you able to respond to God at all. It is a willing choice in a relationship, not a change in your essesnce.Paul M. Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04880809369067743828noreply@blogger.com